Full transcript
The VICE Documentary and the Jack Ryan Label
Host Mike Sarraille opens the conversation by bringing up an article that dubbed Nic McKinley the modern-day Jack Ryan, and McKinley explains how that label came about. He recounts that VICE reached out to him while producing a promotional series tied to Amazon's Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan show, wanting to interview someone whose real career blended field operative and analyst work the way the fictional character does. McKinley says he was not a television watcher and had never seen the show, and his initial reaction to the pitch was to decline, since operators in his world are trained to be quiet professionals rather than public figures ([VICE Media mini-documentary](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYiHtpJyPhU); [Men's Journal Everyday Warrior episode](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbG-Rl4e4CU)).
McKinley credits two mentors with changing his mind: Greg Jackson of Jackson Wink MMA, and a former CIA colleague he refers to as Colonel Jones. One of them told him that being a quiet professional does not mean staying silent, and that a public narrative about people like him will exist regardless, so the real choice is whether to help shape it. That advice led him to sit for the VICE interview, which became the widely shared segment known as The Real Jack Ryan, tied to the 2018 launch of the Prime series and later cited by outlets such as Business Insider when covering his anti-trafficking work ([Business Insider](https://www.businessinsider.com/deliver-fund-xix-entrepreneur-ai-fight-sex-trafficking-2020-1); [Nic McKinley's website](https://nicmckinley.com/)). He is careful to note that the comparison is not literal, since in his view a field operative and an analyst are different jobs, not a single person.
The VICE piece and the Jack Ryan comparison gave McKinley a public platform he had not sought, and he uses the story in the Men's Journal episode to explain why he ultimately chose to speak publicly despite his instinct toward operational secrecy. It also frames the broader arc of the interview: someone trained to stay in the background is now using that visibility to draw attention to human trafficking.
From Pararescue to a Specialized CIA Unit
McKinley describes his path into government service as beginning in U.S. Air Force Pararescue, a Special Operations career field, where he served for roughly a decade before being recruited into the CIA. He was eventually assigned to a specialized unit within the agency and rose to serve as a country chief overseeing operations, giving him firsthand exposure to conflict zones and intelligence work throughout his career ([DeliverFund About page](https://deliverfund.org/about/); [Cleared Hot Podcast episode notes](https://www.clearedhotpodcast.com/episode/ep-265-nic-mckinley-ceo-and-founder-of-deliverfund)).
He ties a specific overseas case to his decision to eventually leave government work: his unit had intelligence, including video evidence, on a trafficker moving children across a border and using them to walk through minefields to test whether pressure-plate bombs were live. When that information moved up the chain of command, McKinley says no one acted on it, largely because countering human trafficking was not a presidential reporting requirement and fell outside the priorities driving intelligence and military resourcing ([Patrick Bet-David interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aM9Ceecajo)).
That experience left him, in his words, curious in a bad way, prompting him to dig through classified systems and talk with colleagues across the Special Operations community. He says that when he asked fellow operators how many missions they had run specifically targeting human traffickers, the consistent answer was none, which convinced him the issue was a structural gap in national strategy rather than a lack of willingness among individual operators.
Why He Left the CIA to Found DeliverFund
McKinley explains that alongside wanting to be present as a father, his main reason for leaving the CIA was recognizing that the United States had no coordinated national strategy for combating human trafficking. He believed he already had the professional network and operational capability from his military and intelligence career to build something that could fill that gap, and combined those assets to create DeliverFund ([VICE Media mini-documentary](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYiHtpJyPhU)).
DeliverFund was formally established as a 501(c)(3) nonprofit in 2014, and McKinley describes it as the world's only private intelligence organization focused specifically on combating human trafficking. It does not function as a survivor-services or rehabilitation charity; instead it takes a proactive, intelligence-driven approach modeled on counterterrorism tradecraft, aiming to create friction for traffickers and dismantle the systems that allow trafficking to persist ([DeliverFund About page](https://deliverfund.org/about/); [Yahoo Lifestyle profile](https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/no-place-hide-real-life-200854078.html)).
He frames DeliverFund's core service as providing data, technology, and training to law enforcement at no cost, since most trafficking investigations happen at the state and local level, where departments often lack the staffing or specialized tools for this kind of online investigative work. In interviews around this period, McKinley describes DeliverFund as partnering with several hundred law enforcement agencies nationwide, a figure he later cites as more than 450.
How the Intelligence and Tech Approach Works
A recurring theme in the episode is that most of the data needed to identify trafficking activity already sits on the open internet rather than hidden on the dark web, contrary to popular assumption. McKinley states that this information is not difficult to find, and that someone could locate relevant activity within a few minutes using a smartphone and a basic search engine, framing the challenge as one of applying the right analytical attention rather than needing exotic tools ([clip: Nic McKinley is the real life Jack Ryan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dtYUxQ43Bc)).
DeliverFund applies tradecraft McKinley developed during counterterrorism work, treating trafficking networks the way intelligence officers treat terror networks: mapping connections, tracking online activity, and building case files that law enforcement can use to pursue prosecutions. He has also described partnering with outside technology firms, including an AI computer-vision startup that applied facial recognition and image analysis to trafficking investigations around large events such as the Super Bowl, when demand for commercial sex has historically spiked ([Business Insider](https://www.businessinsider.com/deliver-fund-xix-entrepreneur-ai-fight-sex-trafficking-2020-1)).
McKinley is critical of social media and technology platforms in the conversation, arguing that current moderation tools are not sufficient to stop predators from using those platforms to identify and groom potential victims, particularly minors. This connects to DeliverFund's broader strategy of working directly with industry partners in banking, hospitality, transportation, and fintech to help those companies identify and remove traffickers from their platforms and services.
Scale of the Trafficking Problem and Key Statistics
McKinley cites data pointing to a sharp rise in reported trafficking activity, referencing a finding from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children of an 846 percent increase in leads involving child sex trafficking over a five-year period. He attributes much of this rise to smartphones and broadband connectivity, which he says give predators direct, low-friction access to potential victims who also carry internet-connected devices ([American Warrior Radio](https://americanwarriorradio.com/2018/10/deliver-fund-nic-mckinley/)).
He also pushes back on common misconceptions about how trafficking actually happens, rejecting the idea that it typically involves strangers abducting children in public places like airports or parking lots. Instead, he describes the more common pattern as traffickers building relationships with vulnerable young people online, primarily girls, through manipulation and coercion, gradually pulling them into what traffickers call a stable before selling their labor or bodies for commercial sex.
McKinley distinguishes the nature of trafficking domestically from its global form, noting that forced labor dominates trafficking in the developing world, while commercial sexual exploitation is the primary form of trafficking within the United States, based on the best data available to his organization. He also references DeliverFund's case record, describing a 100 percent conviction rate on cases the organization has directly supported, which he uses to underscore the quality of the intelligence packages it hands to law enforcement.
The Psychological Toll on Law Enforcement
McKinley discusses the emotional and psychological burden placed on law enforcement officers who work trafficking cases, noting that these investigations repeatedly expose officers to disturbing material involving the exploitation of children and vulnerable adults. He frames this as an underappreciated cost of the fight against trafficking, arguing that departments and the broader justice system need to do more to support officer mental health rather than focusing funding solely on investigations.
This concern feeds into his broader argument about system design: part of DeliverFund's purpose is to reduce the burden on individual officers by pre-packaging usable intelligence, so departments can move more efficiently from tip to arrest without each one needing to build a specialized cyber-investigation capability from scratch.
He connects this back to his own background in Pararescue and the CIA, where operators are trained to compartmentalize trauma and stress in order to keep functioning in the field, suggesting that similar structured support and training could help law enforcement personnel handle the psychological weight of trafficking casework.
What Everyday People and Parents Can Do
McKinley argues that ordinary people, not just law enforcement, have a meaningful role to play in countering trafficking, largely because so much relevant activity is visible on the open internet to anyone who knows what to look for. He frames public awareness and vigilance as a legitimate force multiplier alongside DeliverFund's work with police departments and industry partners.
For parents specifically, he identifies children's unsupervised access to the internet and smartphones as the single biggest risk factor for exposure to predators, since predators can now reach potential victims directly through social media and gaming platforms without ever being physically nearby. He also points to fatherless homes as a significant risk factor that can leave children more vulnerable to grooming and exploitation.
His practical advice for anyone who suspects trafficking or exploitation is to be persistent with authorities: contact the county sheriff, city police department, the Department of Justice, the FBI, and the Department of Homeland Security, and keep contacting agencies until someone responds, in addition to reporting tips to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. DeliverFund has also built consumer-facing tools, including an app launched around September 2023, intended to let parents check whether people with access to their children have any flagged connections to trafficking activity ([Patriot to the Core podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmNHfXc90p8)).